Refurbed has positioned itself as a leader in the refurbished products market, offering a sustainable alternative to buying new goods across a wide range of categories. While initially recognized for electronics, Refurbed has expanded its offerings to include various products such as sports equipment and household items, all of which go through a meticulous 40-step refurbishment process to ensure top quality (1). Their commitment to the circular economy has significantly reduced waste and extended the life cycle of numerous products, making high-quality, affordable options accessible to a broader audience. Last year, the company celebrated a major achievement by reaching 1 billion euros in outside revenue since its founding, highlighting the impact and growth of their innovative, eco-friendly approach.
Refurbed was founded in Vienna in 2017 by co-foundeders Kilian Kaminski, Jürgen Riedl, and Peter Windischhofer. The company aims to become the "Amazon" for refurbished goods in Europe, providing a reliable alternative to new products. He shares with us in the podcast "We really want to be this one -stop shop for sustainable consumption and enabling all customers and consumers across Europe to have an alternative to new and buying sustainable. So we really want to bring in every European household a refurbished or sustainable product from Refurbed" (min 46:16)
The concept of Refurbed was born out of a frustrating personal experience. Peter Windischhofer bought a used smartphone that broke within weeks, with no warranty to fall back on. This inspired the idea of a marketplace where refurbished electronics come with quality guarantees and warranties, making them a viable alternative to new devices. (2)
In this episode we talk to Kilian, who doesn't only share his personal experience on becoming and entrepreneur but also highlights the impact of regulatory changes, the fight against greenwashing, and the need for more sustainable business practices.
Don’t miss out on this fascinating discussion. Tune in to our latest podcast episode with Kilian Kaminski and discover how Refurbed is transforming the electronics market and making a positive impact on the environment.
You can listen to this episode here:
Why is Refurbed relevant for the sustainability discourse?
Refurbed has seen impressive growth since its inception. The company now boasts over 815,000 customers across nine European markets. Their platform features over 400 models of electronic devices from more than 130 vetted retailers, expanding continuously to new sectors and product lines such.
Refurbed's mission goes beyond just providing affordable goods; it's about making a significant positive impact on the environment. Here’s how:
Reducing Electronic Waste: Every year, over 40 million tons of electronic waste are generated worldwide. Refurbed helps mitigate this by extending the life of existing devices.
Lower Environmental Impact: Second life goods have 39%-60% less environmental impact compared to new items. This includes reduced emissions from manufacturing and less toxic waste. (3)
What is the scale of Electronic Waste?
Electronic waste, commonly known as e-waste, encompasses discarded electrical and electronic equipment (EEE) and its components that are thrown away with no intention of reuse. This type of waste, includes a broad array of items—essentially any household or business device with circuitry or electrical components, powered by electricity or batteries. E-waste is one of the fastest-growing and most challenging waste streams globally, impacting human health and the environment while leading to the loss of valuable raw materials.
This issue is particularly alarming because, without proper collection and recycling, these electronics can contribute to pollution. Every electronic item contains both valuable and hazardous materials, such as iron, copper, gold, as well as toxic substances like mercury and flame retardants. Appliances such as refrigerators and air conditioners often contain chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs), potent greenhouse gases that intensify the climate crisis. Reports indicate that approximately 8% of e-waste is discarded improperly, ending up in landfills or incinerators
According to the World Economic Forum 50 million tonnes of e-waste are produced each year, and left unchecked this could more than double to 120 million tonnes by 2050.
"It is hard to imagine even 50 million tonnes, yet this is equivalent in weight to all the commercial aircraft we have ever built throughout history, or 4,500 Eiffel Towers, enough to cover an area the size of Manhattan - and that’s just one year’s worth of the e-waste we create."
World Economic Forum, 2019
Initiatives like Refurbed are essential to tackling this issue. Please check the Global E-Waste Monitor 2024 to know more about where we currently stand on this issue.
In this episode we address the following questions:
What is your favorite secondhand product at home and has the most personal value to you? (2:06)
What kind of phone do you have? (2:52)
How does your Ski refurbishing process work? (3:03)
Have you had products which are actually getting recircled over your platform several times? (3:54)
when you look back on your life, what has been your driving force to become a founder and to actually enter as well the sustainable space? 4:53
Do you have a tip for new entrepreneurs? (5:45)
What is a turn in your entrepreneurial journey you wish went differently? (7:22)
Is there a learning which surprised you the most, which is now written in the expansion book? (9:05)
What is different about founding a company in Germany or Austria? (10:53)
How would you say that you were riding the Sustainability Market Wave of 2017 and how is the wave right now? (13:46)
How we can address that in a generation that is extremely split between being very aware of the environment but also very drawn to convenience and low price? (20:00)
What do you think needs to change in general in the electronics industry to make it more sustainable? (22:47)
What is the current trend on Circular Economy for Big Players? (25:04)
What is easier to bring into a second life phones or washing machines. (28:08)
How can we make people more aware that it makes more sense to buy something more high quality? (29:51)
How do you ensure this sustainability through the whole supply chain? (31:59)
How is the split like companies versus private people buying from you? (34:58)
Do you have a net zero goal for your own company? (36:01)
What is the hardest part of running a sustainable company? (37:10)
How do you want to keep moving on the momentum your company has gained? (38:27)
What are your top three tips for founders in the current investment climate?(39:32)
After 6 rounds of investments, what can you tell us about that journey (41:36)
What makes you confident that we will solve the climate crisis? (42:59)
Memorable quotes from the episode:
"Failure also improves yourself, both professionally and personally."
"We really have to ensure that products stay within the cycle."
(In the context of the Pandemic 2020) "I think still that the biggest challenge for us as a humanity, as a society, is the climate crisis."
"When we founded in 2017, we literally did it because we wanted to create an impact and we were aware that, with this product and the change of consumption from buying new products to thinking about circularity... can really make a difference."
"Specifically, families and the generation of their parents, my parents, we're now also thinking about what kind of world you want to leave behind for our children... This really changed something."
"I think, in the end of the day, if we really will die as a society, as a human race, it will be because of climate. So we really have to take it serious..."
Website: https://www.refurbed.de/
Contact Killian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kiliankaminski/
Impact Report 2023: https://pub.refurbed.com/Sustainabilitypage/refurbed_EIR_ireland_v2_1504%20(1).pdf
__________________________________________________________________________________
Transcript based on AI and beta- status:
Friederike (00:01.36)
Kilian, thank you so much for joining my podcast today now.
Kilian Kaminski (00:05.243)
Thank you very much. Really happy to be invited.
Friederike (00:07.984)
In my last episode, I interviewed Bas von Abel, who's creating a sustainable and repairable phone to enhance a lifetime of one phone. You come from a totally different angle. You as in a marketplace, you actually give a second life to existing products. So coming a little bit, what is your favorite second hand at home and has the most personal value to you?
Kilian Kaminski (00:33.403)
I literally have a lot of secondhand or refurbished products at home, starting from of course my smartphone, my notebook, but also I have a refurbished coffee machine, even have refurbished ski at home, because we also have ski now and I of course love ski sports, specifically as I'm living in Austria. So difficult to really say what is the most personal one for me. Probably the most personal information about myself as my phone. So maybe then I could use this for an answer.
Friederike (01:01.04)
What kind of phone do you have?
Kilian Kaminski (01:03.163)
I have an iPhone 13 refurbished, so I'm a couple of years old, but still I think technically in the perfect state that I can also still use it for a couple of more years.
Friederike (01:12.304)
Wow, it's so cool with the skis. I didn't know that, that you can actually refurb skis. Like, of course you can. I have my skis already since 10 years, so I can imagine you can just make it up. But it's really people throwing the skis very early away and you can just, you know, refurb them. And how does that work?
Kilian Kaminski (01:30.331)
Yeah, the majority of the ski that we have are from rental businesses. So normally after every season, they're giving away the ski because they want to have the newest version and use ski for the new rental period. So often these ski are just used for let's say 10 days rental usage. So they literally like new and then these ski gets refurbished or these snowboards get refurbished and then sold again on our platform, which is an amazing deal because you're literally saving a lot of money doing something positive for the environment. And
the ski having a longer life, which of course is much much better than if they get thrown away or exported to some other countries. And so this is kind of what we want to do to really ensuring the stability aspect and ensuring that circular economy is really lived up specifically also in Europe.
Friederike (02:13.552)
Wow. Have you had products which are actually getting re -circled over your platform several times? Do you know that? Like if they get re -circled,
Kilian Kaminski (02:19.803)
Yeah, it's a bit of a difficult question because we're not, I mean, at the moment we don't have the digital product passport, which of course is also from a regulatory side, something which will make it easier for all of us to understand where our products are coming from. But of course, sometimes we have customers which maybe have purchased a smartphone four years ago or five years ago on our platform, have now purchased a new refurbished smartphone and sold back through our buyback and trade -in program, their old...
refurbished smartphone that they purchased five years ago on our platform, which then goes to a refurbisher. They refurbished it again and listed again on our platform. So I think most likely we will have a couple of smartphones which were sold historically on our platform, traded in back through refurbished and then another customer after two or three years is now the happy new owner of this, the third or fourth extension of the lifetime of this.
Friederike (03:09.2)
Very cool. I think we will come back later back to circularity in general. But first to you, when you look back in your life, what has been your driving force to become a founder and to actually enter as well the sustainable space?
Kilian Kaminski (03:23.739)
It's a really interesting question because I never really wanted to be a self -employed or entrepreneur. I was more the stable, secured person who wants to be in a fixed job where he gets a regular salary, no risk involved. But I think this changed when I met my now co -founder Peter in Shanghai. We both studied together, did our master's degree there and he was a really entrepreneurial person, really driven in this regard and wanted to do something himself. And at one point he couldn't
convinced me that we should both go on the same path. And I had to say that when I was, I think I was there 26 when we took the decision. And it was the point of time where I said, yeah, I mean, now or never, because the risk at this age, I think is much smaller than at a later stage, maybe if you have family or everything involved. So I just took it. And so to answer your question, probably the driving force of going into entrepreneurship and founding ReFURBED was my co -founder Peter.
Friederike (04:21.648)
Hmm. Would you, if you would go back like to the actual point when you decided to go like from an employee safe position, would you, what would you recommend others who are thinking exactly the same? Like maybe they are in a safe position in a big corporation. I think you worked for Amazon before and thinking about becoming a founder. Do you have like a tip for them?
Kilian Kaminski (04:44.731)
Nowadays, as I'm a bit more wise, I would say after all this time, I would say like, you should do it, right? I think it's a bit connected maybe to the family situation that you're in. And in this regard, I mean, you know, other people's really relying on you and on the money that you have because I was at this point of time, the lucky situation that I was just relying on myself. So the worst thing that could happen is it will not work out. I'm unemployed and then I have to sleep on my...
best friend's couch for a couple of weeks or months until I have a job. So the downside was technically quite limited. I think this could be different, you know, if you have a family, if you just got a kid or you purchased a house or whatever it is and you have high debt, then maybe it's different. But I think if you are young, if you're in a situation to give it a try, you should just try it because I think you can learn so much out of it. And I'm in a lucky situation now, seven years later, that it went quite successful and we're really happy where we are.
But of course, also the reality normally, many of the entrepreneurs which are trying to be entrepreneurial fail at the first place and starting again and again. And the thing is specifically in the US, you have so many stories exactly about the serial entrepreneur founders which failed 20 times and the 21st time was the unicorn, this big company now, which is a bit of a cultural difference, I think, in Europe, which is a bit of sad as well. But overall,
I would always suggest to try it out, give it a try, learn about what the challenges are, what you have to do there, because in the end of the day, failure also improves yourself, professional and personally. And we also failed a lot of time despite we are still successful. And the failures were the most important moments, I think, for personal and professional development for myself.
Friederike (06:25.104)
Do you remember one failure, like which is usually in every entrepreneur life, you remember like one like, no, you know, like that was really like the one turn I shouldn't have taken. Do you remember that? Do you remember one of it?
Kilian Kaminski (06:39.451)
I probably remember about 100, but I think just to focus on one. Our first expansion to a new country where we went to Poland and before that we were just active in Germany and Austria because these markets are really similar from a cultural perspective as well. And I would say we were not doing great market analysis about Poland and what are the cultural differences, what are the focuses of it. We just thought let's copy kind of the model that we have in Germany and Austria to Poland.
which is not really working well because they have a different attitude regarding e -commerce purchases, regarding price attractiveness, sustainability focus, specifically when we're looking back to 2018 -19, even a much different time regarding sustainability, mega trend, etc. So, yeah, we massively failed there, but we learned our lesson. We kind of started to create and we call it now an expansion playbook. So literally for expanding to new countries, we created a playbook which we...
always updating after every new launch we're doing for new country. And now looking back where we are active just recently to our 11th country in Europe, every new country literally grew faster in the beginning, was more successful in a shorter period of time. So it really showcases that if you iterate all the time about the process that you're doing, if you are taking the learnings of the failures, but also the success factors and combining them in the end of the day in let's say one perfect playbook.
then of course it really helps to have a long -term success. But there's what I mentioned in the past that I think myself personally, but also as a company, we grew and learned much more from failure than from success. And I think this is also something which we really implemented in our mindset, but also in our company values and principles that we also want to ensure that our colleagues in the company are aware that they are allowed to fail, but they have to learn something out of the failure.
Friederike (08:27.888)
Is there a learning which surprised you the most, which is now written in the expansion book?
Kilian Kaminski (08:36.251)
More difficult to say. I would say one thing is that we really learned that we want to have, or we always need one person who is like local in the market, at least have the understanding of, let's say, for example, doing marketing now in Czech Republic or doing marketing in Sweden where we're active, because we learned that even if you do a lot of research from an external perspective, if you're not having the culture yourself, if you're not growing up in the culture, if you're not living the culture yourself, it's really difficult to kind of copy it or implementing it into this individual country.
So this was a huge learning for us, really hiring a person who has experience in this country, working there, living there. So to ensure that we really are up to date and ensuring that we exactly know what happens now, what is the communication messages we want to deliver to our customers and really understanding what the customer needs are, which can be just done much better if you have a local person than some experts maybe, which just imagine that they could know everything better than the people in the country itself.
Friederike (09:35.024)
I can totally relate. I think when we did with our e -commerce platform, the first expansion into another country, I think we did it after two years launching into from Switzerland into Germany. And we certainly failed. I think we also had to close it down after eight months because we just didn't understand the market economics and you know, customer acquisition costs was totally different. The way of people buy Germany versus Switzerland, super different.
So I can totally relate to that. And we also later on entered with a lot more knowledge. Okay, how do we, how do we need to tackle that? I can totally relate to that. Coming from the failure culture, I think it's very interesting because you founded your company in Vienna. So in Austria, you just told me before, when we, before we entered the podcast that you did it because of your co -founder.
Do you see any difference coming from Germany and from Austria? Is there a difference in the failure culture? And would you like rather recommend to found a company in Austria or in Germany?
Kilian Kaminski (10:35.291)
First of all, I have to say that I also really like Austria. So don't get me wrong that I'm unhappy that we founded the company in Austria and Vienna. Of course, for me visiting my family or something takes me a bit longer than for my co -founders, which are probably much closer. But overall, looking back, I think it was really good decision of founding in Austria. When we were starting the company, I was based in Munich working for Amazon, as you stated already. My two co -founders were based in Vienna and Austria.
Friederike (10:38.704)
Hahaha!
Kilian Kaminski (11:01.435)
So we kind of discussed where we want to found the company as it is an e -commerce company. It was clear that if you want to do it in Germany, you would have to do it in Berlin. That was kind of a clear case specifically in 2017. But in Berlin, you have probably 1000 or 2000 great startups and cool startups. And you have quite an interesting situation there that...
companies or people in the companies are changing all the time because they get offer from all of the different companies which are just like two corners to two streets around the corner. So we really had to think about how we can ensure that we get the best talents but also ensuring to have a good start in the beginning and going to Austria allowed us to really being one of the top startups quite early on. So we also got a really good press coverage in Austria in the beginning.
We got some governmental grants, which was for sure much easier than doing this in Germany and competing with all of the other big startups. So the startup ecosystem in Austria is for sure much smaller, but specifically in 2017, the government had a huge focus on establishing Vienna as well as a bit of a CE hub for startups, kind of the CE version of Berlin. And this meant for us a lot of support from the government specifically, but also from programs and a lot of activities on
accelerator programs, workshops and other support, which helped us a lot. And when we're looking at the situation now, I would say, if you know our brand name and you hear about our brand name in Germany, everyone thinks we're a German company. In Austria, everyone thinks we're an Austrian company. Probably even in Sweden, people would think that we are a Swedish company because that is kind of how we're doing the branding as well and how we're trying to optimizing it. And I think this is a really good strategy because...
Friederike (12:32.752)
Mm.
Kilian Kaminski (12:46.075)
I mean, I would say that the patriotism in Europe is different than in the US for sure, but still people like to buy from their own nation and not from some expert national version. So I think that helps a lot. So for me personally, I think it was the right decision looking back. And as your question was, like, should we suggest others to doing the same?
Thinking about Austria, like winning Austria, learning about Austria is of course much easier because you have just one -tenth of the population here. So you can use with or with less budget, you can kind of tackle the market, you can learn about the market and roll it out to Germany from Austria is culturally wise, relatively easy or it just needs minor adjustments. So it's a great, I would say test market for Germany. In our case, we just launched both together, but still we always had...
the foundation of Austria as let's say a home turf or a castle and Germany then as our first expansion marks despite the relaunched both together. This really helped and now Germany is by far our biggest market but of course also connected to the size of the market itself.
Friederike (13:54.256)
When you founded 2017, the company, I think it was just the wave of climate, I'd say, awareness was just coming up again, I think in that time, like it was more and more people realized, I think it was 2015, was the Paris Climate Agreement. And I think there was like coming more and more the push and awareness of the people that, you know, like we have to think about the climate and our impact more.
How would you say that you were riding that wave and how is the wave right now?
Kilian Kaminski (14:27.483)
So in general, I would say that if you're looking back to this to the time of 2017, yes, of course, the Paris agreement that you stated in 2015 played a role, but I would say in the general society, 95 % of people didn't really care. I mean, hard said, but I think it is the case. So when we found 2017, we literally did it because we wanted to create an impact. And we were aware that with this product and the...
the change of consumption from buying new products to thinking about circularity, thinking about refurbished products as an alternative to buying new products can really make a difference and can has a huge potential because of the value proposition that you can save money, you get a warranty and at the same time you're doing something positive for the environment in regard of CO2 emissions, electronic waste, water consumption. So we are sure that you can create a business model which combines ecological impact as well as economic success. And luckily for us,
because you touch the trends topic. I think end of 2017, beginning of 2018, the topic about Krita Lundberg was getting more and more important in Fridays for Future. So this got a really strong presence in the media. And at one point, it not getting just a topic of, let's say, the politicians or maybe the elite, because they informed themselves much more about it, but really about a general situation that everyone was aware that kids demonstrated for the climate.
And so specifically families and let's say the generation of their parents, my parents, we're now also thinking about what kind of world you want to leave behind for our children. And this really changed something. And so I think we were quite lucky that we started before that and then it happened, which of course just increased, I think, the awareness of sustainability. Then looking back the last seven years, so the first two, three years were really successful, a huge growth in interest and stability.
And then COVID happened and everything, 2020, the Green Deal came, which I think it was February 2020, it was kind of officially signed and finalized, which of course had a huge focus on circularity. And this was kind of the topic about the next five years. But then a couple of weeks later, COVID happened and the focus was on health, which of course also makes sense because it was literally the question about do we survive as a humanity at this point of time?
Kilian Kaminski (16:49.307)
I think still that the biggest challenge for us as a humanity, as a society is climate, the climate crisis. So there could be diseases or whatever is coming up, but I think in the end of the day, if we really will die as a society, as a human race, it will be because of climate. So we really have to take it serious. But which also means that during the COVID period, the focus of stability was just reduced, right? Then the next thing that came was the wars.
And this partly also means inflation. Inflation also means people again thinking about can we spend more money for more sustainable choices? Because in general, everything which is sustainable is normally more expensive. I think we are one of the rare products, areas, categories where you can save money at the same time doing something positive for the planet or for the stability for the nature. But in general, it's not the case, right? And this is, I think, a huge problem.
because it means that if someone wants to be more sustainable, they have to cut their costs somewhere else. And this is one of the big topics why people say they want to be more sustainable, but in the end of the day, they are not and still buying the cheap products. So the inflation piece also plays a role, I think, which again is a bit of a downturn on stability, on impact on these topics. And then last but not least, now we're looking at the European legislation and the kind of new drafts, what is happening in the next legislation period.
Here the biggest topic will be security because of the wars, of course, specifically Ukraine and Russia, which is, I mean, close to all of us. But also when we're looking at Israel and Palestine, of course, there as well. So we have right now war in front of our borders, which scares many people. And therefore, again, now the big topic is security. But again, it means also that sustainability again plays a really small role, I think, in the first drafts of the legislation paper.
It's not even mentioned once, which is kind of catastrophic because as I said before, and I really want to emphasize on that, in my opinion, the biggest threat for us as human race is climate and we have to fight the climate crisis so that we have to also focus it from a legislation point of view and regulatory point of view. And so we really try hard to advocate for it myself as well as part of the board of an association. I'm also an expert in a couple of working groups for the European Commission.
Kilian Kaminski (19:13.627)
But it's getting tougher and tougher if it's not written in the legislation papers. But I think that is the focus we have to really emphasize in ensuring that this is again on top of mind of all of the people.
Friederike (19:25.648)
Yeah, I cannot agree more. I think it's the biggest challenge of having something which is felt very prolonged forwards, like the impact will come in future, is to bring that into the heads that we have to act now. And I think there has been a lot of studies about that adaptation will cost us so much more than prevention. So if we have to adapt to so much higher degree,
of heat, it will cost us way more than actually now investing into climate tech solutions. I really like, yep, yep.
Kilian Kaminski (19:56.187)
Maybe one point on that one, right? I mean, I totally agree. And I think this is the biggest problem why people are not focusing on it. Because historically, the climate crisis, the disasters happened, you know, in Asia, somewhere in developing countries. Right now, what we see is it happens in front of our doors, right? Like floods happened, I mean, a couple of weeks ago, also in the southern part of Germany. Last year, the big floods in...
in Baden -Württemberg and so on. So there were huge disasters happening across Europe now as well. Big fires last year, Greece. I mean, nearly the whole islands on Greece were burned down. So I think it's now so obvious, it's so visible. Whoever now says climate change is not real, like Donald Trump said at one point that it's a hoax, I personally get really angry in this regard because there is no question anymore. If you're just looking at the data about
the most heated months, years, it's always increasing, growing, growing, growing. It's getting worse and worse. I think we are like far beyond the point about denying and not taking it serious because we are all affected and it's not just maybe in the future it will happen. We are affected already literally in our own countries. And I think this should really alarm all of us to really take action and do something about it.
Friederike (21:18.672)
I think one of the discussions I have, which I think is very interesting to get your point of view, is, you know, there has been a lot of force, as you mentioned before, by Greta in that, you know, genset generation of acts like going on the streets, trying to protest for it. And at the same time, what I can't get in my head is they're the one of the biggest luxury.
buyers, you could still say, okay, you know, that's maybe sustainable because you can have secondhand, et cetera. At the same time, it's Shein and Temu and et cetera. They have a big buying group in that generation. So coming from before you said like you're acting a lot political as well. Do you see any anchor point how we can, you know, address that in a generation that extremely split between being very aware and then, you know, but at the other side, like convenience and price is still the most important one.
Kilian Kaminski (22:12.987)
We have to understand that the lifetime of these products, I mean, these t -shirts or whatever fashion items it is, is of course much shorter because the quality of these products is just shorter. And the problem is specifically when we're looking at social media and the main drivers for the success of a team and so on is like a TikTok or Instagram, wherever these kinds of social media apps are, which are really focused on for this kind of age group, they're kind of creating this mindset, there's a new trend.
If you want to be cool, you have to be part of it. And now we're having, or with them, we're having fashion cycles, I think, of 21 per year or more than 20 fashion cycles per year. I mean, historically, we already had like five or six, like the seasons and so on, which I think is already crazy, right? And every year you need something new. But it's just getting worse because of social media. And I think the influence of social media...
for this age group is kind of horrified. I mean, we see it also from statistics how many hours the young generation is spending on their phones and looking at these devices and these ads and whatever it is. I mean, when I was young, we still had a, I already had a phone. I mean, I still remember my first phone, I think was this Nokia 3310 where you have the snake on it, the snake game. But I still spend a lot of time outside, played with my friends because it was not a smartphone. It was when...
It was fun to play this snake game, but I think after one hour you are bored because it's not keeping you in the loop the whole time. Nowadays, we really have issues that people are just staying at home, right? They're just in the bedroom. So I understand why, for example, like governments like France considering of forbidding social media usage for kids under a specific age or something, because I think it is really dangerous. And why these kinds of companies are successful, like Atemo or the other players like Shane and so on.
is because they really focused on manipulating these generations to buy again and again and again and make it an obstacle for them to be in the trend, to always being up to date what's happening and therefore kind of creating this culture, which in theory based, runs totally against their mindset that they want to be sustainable. And they literally, as you said, living in two worlds, they mentioned that they want to be sustainable.
Kilian Kaminski (24:32.379)
but they're not really calculating the actions that they have, what they are doing, and this is a big problem.
Friederike (24:40.4)
Yeah, no, I agree. And coming now from the fashion industry or from that others like a team was part of the electronic industry as well, like looking at more an holistic place, what do you think needs to change in general in the electronics industry to make it more sustainable?
Kilian Kaminski (24:59.323)
I mean, I think there are a lot of topics to change in the electronic industry. One big part is that we really have to ensure that the products are staying within Europe, staying within the cycle, because the big problem is that still products are getting exported illegally to developing countries, used products getting legally developed, and we're not doing the refurbishment, the recycling ourselves. I think another big topic is we have a lot of...
products at home, not sure if you have in your drawer as well some electronic devices yourself, because you are maybe don't have a convenience option of bringing them back, you don't think that they have a value of it. But in general, these products, they contain still rare resources, right? It's gold, silver, copper, lithium, and so on and so on. So first of all, we should try to extend the lifetime of these products. And that is what we are doing. That's our task of ensuring that if a product is used for two years and then...
the person wants to place it into the drawer, we want to offer them the opportunity to trade it back into the circle, trading back to the refurbishers through our trade in and buy back program at ReFURBED, to then refurbish the device and offering another person who's happy to buy a two years old phone, as it's still from a, let's say, functionality perspective, as good as a new one. The new functionalities, the improvements of, technically improvements are not really happening a lot compared to, let's say, 10 years ago, where there was huge advantages.
of the technology development. So that is, I think, one of the first measurements that we have to take. So extending the lifetime of these products. But then even if a product gets to the end of the lifetime, which in electronic cases is often because of software obsolescence, that means that there are no software updates provided anymore from the manufacturers, which of course creates that you cannot use it anymore. But then it also means that we really have to change it in the regard that we still have to ensure that these products stay into the circle.
example through recycling, so to ensure that we can bring these products back into the cycle and at least using the resources out of the products, also ensuring that the supply chain for example is not, we're not too affected regarding supply chain issues which we had when the big container ship was stuck in the Suez channel for example. We really have to ensure that in Europe we are able to also produce ourselves and keeping the resources as good as possible here.
Friederike (27:27.984)
Yeah, no, totally agree. I think the, it was just affliction now in the, in the recording. can you turn off your video quickly? I think there's something with the, with the, okay. I'm in Spain right now. That's why I think that's, I think then we'll come, I will, if I see when it's getting better, I will turn it on again, just that, you know.
Kilian Kaminski (27:38.011)
Sure.
Kilian Kaminski (27:45.659)
Yeah, no worries.
Kilian Kaminski (27:54.299)
Sure.
Friederike (27:56.08)
Okay, now great. I think one of the biggest electronic, let's say as well, probably waste producers as well, is Apple. And I was very surprised. I think there was this massive campaign with Mother Nature video. And I'm always thinking about how much of that is greenwashing? And I would be as well interested in how much are you getting affected by greenwashing claims?
And do you see a trend of changing? Like, you know, I spoke to Fairphone and as well to Framework, which are both trying to produce electronic products, which you can repair, which you can extend the lifetime, maybe to even five or 10 years. Do you see a trend, a changing trend, beside this massive green campaigns of Apple and the other big producers like Samsung, of really trying to be more circular? Or is that more...
right now like trying to be part of that campaigning of yeah be to being green.
Kilian Kaminski (28:59.995)
In general, I think that greenwashing is a huge problem. I mean, God bless on the European side, there is now the green claim directive, which was greenwashing directive, which was also finalized. So that kind of now ensures that if there are clear greenwashing campaigns, that these companies can be fined.
I think this is a really important step and was necessary already quite a while ago. Because if you're looking at the, at the marketing and the branding of these companies, literally every company is now green. Even all oil companies are green companies. And this is a joke itself, right? So I think greenwashing is a huge problem. Also looking at the campaigns that you touched, let's say the Apple campaign and so on. I believe it's a lot of branding and the branding is...
Friederike (29:40.432)
Hm.
Kilian Kaminski (29:50.907)
for sure for the whole company, not so true, because just if you are an organization which is bringing out new devices and new models every year, you cannot be a green, sustainable company because no one needs every year a new phone. And if you're looking at the update cycles or upgrade cycles of these products and the technical improvements, not really existing. So it's just about increasing profit. And for me, this is not a sustainable action that they are taking. So in general, I think why these companies
considering to going more into a more sustainable action, which could be like more circular device or whatever it is, is because of the regulatory side. So looking at the development of these products, generation over generation, these products are less repairable until now. These manufacturers make it harder and harder and harder to these repairing these devices. But now, of course, let's say to the right to repair, which was also finalized and signed.
couple of months ago, where we also did a huge part in lobbying activities ourselves to ensuring that not the politicians are only listening to the manufacturers, but also to the refurbishment, to the second hand, to the recycling and reuse community, creates requirements for the manufacturers to change their behavior in the next couple of years. But it was not because of their personal opinion that this is the right way to go.
For them, it's about selling as many new products as possible, as frequently as possible, to make more money. It's not about creating circular models. That's not the priority. So there is the regulatory and legislative requirement to ensuring that these companies are forced to do it because they will not change themselves. And this is my perspective on the greenwashing topic that you just touched.
Friederike (31:43.312)
Hmm. What is for you easier to bring or you know, baby, we probably know the statistic. What is easier to bring into a second life? Phones or washing machines?
Kilian Kaminski (31:54.587)
It's a really difficult question because all products, I would say, in all product categories are built, not all, but I think the majority of new products in all of the kind of categories are built less and less repairable. Also because, let's say, depending a bit as well on the brands, right? I mean, if you're always looking at the cheap product brands, they are always made from plastic. Let's talk about washing machines, which are costing just a couple of hundred euros.
So it's probably more expensive to repair these machines than to just buy a new one. I wish again, it's not really helpful for people which want to be more sustainable or which want to repair their products. So I think as a customer, you also have to choose if you're willing to invest, let's say a higher amount of money in the beginning, but therefore have a longer lasting product. Or if you want to buy something as cheap as possible and just be aware that you just have to replace it much more often.
maybe to low costs, but this is everything against stability. And I think this is a mindset question that people have to ask themselves. But if you're looking, for example, also other categories like fashion or so on, if you will invest money in buying a high quality jeans, for example, it probably will last for 10 or 20 years if you wear it correctly. If you buy something for 10 or 15 euros, it maybe lasts a couple of months. So it even could be the case that the calculation and the money invested into it.
It can be a positive case if you just take the higher price, but the more sustainable and long lasting product. And I think it's similar in the electronic industry if you're thinking about what kind of products you want to buy and really focusing in this regard.
Friederike (33:38.896)
Is there a way, like you just said before, you know, the easy, like the repair, I don't know, legislation, I don't know what to call it, but you know, like the initiative would use taking on that. Is there a way, I'm always thinking like coming maybe from a, you do the marketplace for second life, but if you think about as an e -commerce retailer who has like thousands of different suppliers, like say 100 ,000 products, et cetera.
Do you see any way of promoting than actually the more expensive or the more durable, more quality ones? Is there like, there should be there like a sticker or anything like that? How can we make people more aware that it makes probably more sense to buy something more like more high quality because you can repair it, keep it longer and et cetera. Because I think that's kind of the grandmother principle. So, you know, like my grandma always came to us like, yeah, you have to buy something.
very durable, it can be more expensive, but it needs to be lasting very long. And I feel when we were running an e -commerce companies, it was so difficult to get that across that people understand that there's a reason sometimes as well why you buy high quality products and et cetera. Do you have a tip like for other retailers how to get them more that across?
Kilian Kaminski (35:00.891)
I don't want to lobby now for politics because sometimes I think politics is really annoying and also like looking at the current climate change, like on the current perspective and look out on politics across Europe. I think it's really, really negative and I'm really, really horrified about what comes up in the next couple of months and years. But a good example, for example, what France did was they created a repairability index.
Friederike (35:04.144)
Hahaha!
Kilian Kaminski (35:29.947)
So that means that if you are in a retail store, if you are looking online on product websites, it has to showcase how repairable a device is from a scale to zero to 10. So at the purchase decision, the customer can decide if they want to buy a product which maybe has a repairability product, a scale of three points or getting 10 points, let's say as in the electronic industry, you will most likely, for example, have with a Fairphone or with a Shiftphone, which have this modular model. So...
these kinds of ideas enabling the customers or the consumers to really have an understanding how repairable a device is. Because it's a lot about education in the end of the day. We cannot know everything and I think this is also impossible to come to this point of time. But providing the consumers with as many information as possible to take their purchasing decision as good as possible. I think this is an important step of doing and of course,
Most likely, a couple of these, let's say the cheapest products from private label companies from China, most likely will have a low repair score. Where on the other hand, let's say products which are produced at higher quality, most likely will have a higher repair score. So I think these kind of initiatives really can help to educate customers and enabling customers to really take a profound decision.
Friederike (36:40.784)
Mm.
Kilian Kaminski (36:56.667)
in their purchase instead of just relying on advertisement, brands, what they see in social media, et cetera.
Friederike (37:04.656)
Coming now to Reifer, how do you ensure this sustainability through the whole supply chain? Because as a marketplace, it's often that you are not having the control over the products end to end. How do you make sure that sustainability is as well in your value chain present?
Kilian Kaminski (37:26.395)
To get a really good point and specifically also a huge challenge as you pointed out as a marketplace, we're not touching the products, we're working with partners. I think the first step is we're only working with selected partners. So not everyone can sell on our platform, but we hand select the partners which want to sell on our platform. They have to go through a verification process where we're testing where the products are coming from, which spare parts they are using, how they are doing the refurbishment.
which software they're using, which technical equipment they're using. So we really have a really profound onboarding process to ensuring that we have proper companies which are doing a high quality job to really ensuring that the customers are always getting the best possible product in the refurbished category. So this is the first step, I would say. But then also we also working together with the Fraunhofer Austria Institute, like it's a huge research institute, which is a global institute. We're working with their Austrian chain to kind of analyzing the environmental impact.
we creating as a company, but also of course, for this reason, our partners, like the refurbishers which we are working with are creating. And we have now published a couple of weeks ago, our second sustainability impact report. So for 2024, the last one we published last year, exactly a year ago. And I think it really greatly showcases what the impact is that we are creating and what we are doing to ensuring that with...
Buying a refurbished product, you can create an impact. In our case, it's more than 80 % reduction of CO2 emissions, more than 60 % of reduction in electronic waste and more than 80 % reduction of water consumption if you're choosing a refurbished product instead of a new product. But for us, it was really important also connected, let's say, to the greenwashing topic that we had before, that we want to ensure we not just want to publish numbers or say we are that positive and that green.
But we really want to ensure that we have profound and verified data from an external, neutral organization, which verifies us. And this really puts us on top of the market because we were really the first company in the whole refurbishment industry, which created a sustainability environmental impact report and analyzed exactly the impact of the individual models which are created. It also allows us now to, for example, if companies wants to buy
Kilian Kaminski (39:48.251)
their company equipment refurbished like company smartphones, company notebooks, they can buy these now from us and we can even certify them about the impact that they positively created on the environment. And they can use it now for their stability reports, which again will be like a regulatory requirement in Europe in the future. So we really want to be a role model and lead this whole topic ahead of everyone else to ensure that the impact that we are created is also.
supported for our network, for our partners and our stakeholders, and everyone can benefit out of it.
Friederike (40:22.064)
You just mentioned that you also have companies buying from you. How is the split like companies versus private people buying from you?
Kilian Kaminski (40:32.763)
So it's still the case that the majority of customers are end customers. So probably like 80 % end customers and 20 % companies. And we see a huge development in companies buying from us because I think as well of the regulatory requirements. But it's also quite interesting that many companies are buying from us because their employees are asking their employers and the companies like why I purchased it privately myself like refurbished products at refurb.
why we're not buying as a company our company phones or company notebooks refurbished because it will do something good for the environment. And we always as a company say that, but why we're not doing it. So it's really interesting that kind of the, the motivation, the push is more coming from the employees and the companies. But we really see that there's a higher demand months over months. And we're really happy that also companies now take it serious and also want to implement it in, in their sustainability strategy as well to focus more on sustainable product as well in their.
IT equipment on their sites.
Friederike (41:34.256)
You mentioned before that you as well have this impact report. So I guess you have like a net zero goal for your own company.
Kilian Kaminski (41:41.211)
I mean, it really depends on the calculations, but what we are doing is we, as I mentioned before, we're already saving more than 80 or 60 % depending on the topic you're looking at, for example, on CO2 emissions. But we decided that's not enough for us. We also want to contribute even further to it. So let's say the CO2 emissions, for example, that we are creating through the refurbishment process and then also through the transport of the products. In this regard, we're working with a project from My Climate together, which...
capture CO2 emissions in the soil. We're also working with Minimize, another project together and an NGO which works on e -waste reduction. And then also working on land -step restoration. So we are investing and funding many of these kinds of products in the field we are active in because we believe that we even have to go a step further, not only just doing what we're doing and having a positive impact just by selling our products, which are more sustainable compared to new, of course, but also want to...
having an additional impact which kind of creates a positive footprint through our operations, through the projects we are doing, which means that we are kind of by operating ourselves and supporting these projects already at NetZero Company.
Friederike (42:56.784)
What is the hardest to reach it? Like, what do you think? Like, okay, this is really the most difficult part of running that operation to actually make it to net zero or to be sustainable.
Kilian Kaminski (43:09.691)
In general, I think for the majority of companies, a big problem is really shifting towards a 100 % dedicated sustainability strategy. I believe that the majority of companies are still seeing it as...
Friederike (43:21.392)
I mean for your company, for Refurbed, like what's in your net zero goal. Yeah, for your own company. Yeah.
Kilian Kaminski (43:26.235)
VH1 Company.
Kilian Kaminski (43:31.355)
I think it's just a mindset question, right? I mean, we also have to optimize our operations to be profitable as an organization. Also, our investors are, of course, looking into our numbers and want to see a profitable company over the long term and making positive revenue. We're not the NGO. We are a classic company which focuses as well on being successful and being profitable in the long term.
So we also have to optimizing our operations, but we decided as a company and also discussed this with our investors that we want to jeopardize our sustainability impact and our sustainability strategy because we created the company, because we believe that we need to create impact. And in our company, the mindset is that success and business success is defined as profit and impact. And only the combination of both defines success.
And I think this is still something which is rarely happening in companies because the majority of companies just focusing on profit as their own success criteria. But if you really want to change something and really want to take it serious, we have to create this mindset about impact and profit is the definition of success. And there we really leading by example, we really taking it serious and every decision we are taking with.
Friederike (44:47.952)
Yeah, I cannot agree more. You had like an amazing last seven years. Like I think I saw somewhere you have 1 billion outside revenue. At least that's what you reported.
Friederike (46:17.872)
with, with one million, one billion outside revenue, I think that's what you reported. You gained a great momentum in these last seven years. What is your ambition on how do you want to fulfill it going forward?
Kilian Kaminski (46:22.011)
Yeah, okay. Okay.
Sure.
Of course, yeah. All good. Thank you.
Kilian Kaminski (46:49.339)
We really want to be this one -stop shop for sustainable consumption and enabling all customers and consumers across Europe of having an alternative towards new and buying sustainable. So we really want to bring in every European household a refurbished or sustainable product from refurbished. So this is kind of our long -term vision in which we are strongly working towards. So the first results that we have, and as you touch the numbers and the foundation, we sold products.
for more than one billion euro of value. This is a great first step, but I think we still have a long way to go. We're now active in 11 European countries. There's still many countries left which cannot yet buy from us. So we really want to ensure that we're expanding further to new countries. We're also expanding our product categories going forward and ensuring that everyone is able to consume more sustainable.
And this is our vision. And I think we're on a good path, but still a long way to go. But it also keeps us all motivated of even creating a bigger impact in the future.
Kilian Kaminski (01:18.871)
Last year we announced the 1 billion as the sum we have accumulated since the foundation. Not per year, but the accumulated. Of course a large part of the 1 billion was found in the last year, but it is still a cumulative sum and not a yearly sum.
Friederike (01:46.558)
Okay, then I'll write in cumulatively.
Okay, good, then we'll go to sleep.
Kilian Kaminski (02:05.687)
I think we already were on a good track, but in the end of the day, I think sky is the limit, specifically when we're talking about environmental impact and doing something positive for the planet. So our big goal is really to continue to this pass, growing even stronger, enabling more and more customers of getting refurbished products, being more sustainable in their consumption, which also contains, of course, the only expansion to new markets, but also specifically
adding new product categories. I mean, we started with smartphones and notebooks and extended to kitchen products, household goods, garden equipment. Now we are already active in sports. You can buy an e -bike from us, you can buy ski and snowboards refurbished. So the goal is really to be this one stop shop for sustainable consumption and really make consumption more sustainable. And I think we are on a great path, but there's still a lot of a big and long way to go to really have a positive impact. And we will continue.
striving for that as a whole organization with every we've heard be in the cool company and I really look forward to that one.
Friederike (03:07.728)
Currently is being like I would say challenging investment environment. If you would give tips like the top three tips for founders, maybe in the sustainability space, but in general, what are your top three tips for founders in the current investment climate?
Kilian Kaminski (03:27.639)
So first of all, probably that you don't need money at the moment because it is really a mess. It is really, really horrible, I think, how the current investment environment changed. If you're not doing something with AI, it's really tough. So I think in general, it's really about being as cautious as possible with your money, ensuring that the run rate is as long as possible, because I think the development will be better in the future, but I still think also take some more time.
It's really about showing the value that you can create. And I believe that despite the investors are mentioning that they're shifting much more towards impact investment and want to reinvesting in something which has a positive impact on their investment, I still believe that the combination is what they're searching for. The combination out of a strong impact, which has, for example, a positive impact on the planet or on social side, which has to be combined with economic success and specifically with potential
that both sides can grow similar ways. So I think this showcasing this is a really important factor of getting investment and showcasing that you're better than the others. And with that, I think you have at least the best chance of the current momentum of raising money. So I hope that all of these great ideas that we have there in the market, which are now fighting for fighting for investment, that they are able to get investment so that we really can change something positive.
on this planet and really have more impactful businesses active on this world.
Friederike (04:59.198)
You are not actively raising right now.
Kilian Kaminski (05:02.711)
Luckily, we finished our last funding round in autumn last year, about $57 million, which allows us that we are not in this climate at the moment where we have to raise money. Despite even with this money, we will be able to be profitable as a whole organization. So I think after six rounds of investment, since we started the company seven years ago, we're also quite happy that we're now coming to a point where we do not have to raise money anymore to survive, but more likely.
We can decide ourselves if it would make sense to add additional money to our business, for example, for more expansion or faster growth. But it was also a tough time for the last seven years of getting to this point. So really happy that despite the current funding environment, we were able to raise a serious C round. And then now on a different negotiation grounds as before.
Friederike (05:55.038)
Do you remember, was there one thing that made the tipping point? Like, you know, last autumn was still kind of rough, already very rough investment climate. Do you remember one point where you said like, this was actually why we could raise that amount of money and where we are right now?
Kilian Kaminski (06:14.999)
It's difficult, I think, to say there's one individual point or situation or circumstances which led us to this point. I believe that there are a couple of points. One is for sure that we always were in constant contact with our investors, but also external investors to update them about our development, asking about what they think about our business, where they see the most potential, where they want to focus on. In addition to that, I think we literally did an amazing job. And with we, I mean specifically every individual.
colleague of mine working at ReFERBED to really getting the numbers in the direction that we want to get them in, having the right growth in the business, really moving toward profitability as a whole organization that in the end of the day resulted in kind of checking, checkboxing the numbers that the investors were looking for and really showcasing that despite this difficult environment and also this big shift from, I would say, general growth to profitability,
we were able to succeed in my opinion, really impressive way without big layovers like many others did in the past. And I think this combination of all of these points led us to raising this round last year and maybe also differentiate us a bit from other players in the industry, other startups in general, which were not able to be as successful as we were with the switch in the market.
Friederike (07:38.75)
You just mentioned before that you hope that there is more money that comes into impact investment as well. What makes you confident that we will solve the climate crisis?
Kilian Kaminski (07:52.119)
If I wouldn't believe that we can solve the climate crisis, I probably would not wake up anymore because I think then it's useless, right? To go out of bed. I believe that we can do it because also when I'm on conferences, when I'm regularly meeting people, other players in the industry, there are so many really amazing entrepreneurial driven people which really want to change the world and really want to change the world in the best possible way of creating a
a better planet, a better version living for all of us, fighting climate change in every different aspect of the business focus that they have. And I believe that with all of this passion of these people, and then hopefully with also the funding of specifically these amazing ideas that are there in the market, we can do our part of changing the planet and changing the climate crisis and doing our part for a better planet. The only thing which I think is also important
We really have to be this leaders of change because the biggest impact of fighting the climate crisis is still with this big global corporates, right? And I believe that our task is of challenging them as much as possible, showcasing them that if they're not changing, they will lose in the market. And through that also enabling them to shifting towards a much more environmental friendly business operations, I would say.
But I believe that we can do it and we also want to be on the forefront of doing that as Refurbed. And so that is what we're trying to do every day. And hopefully many others will follow or many others will standing along us or we standing along them. And with this positive belief, I wake up even better every morning, I would say.
Friederike (09:36.958)
Great. I think that's amazing last words for our interview. I really enjoyed having you on my podcast and I wish you all the best luck in combining that impact with profit. I think that's the right way to go. And thank you so much for joining. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Kilian Kaminski (09:54.679)
Thank you very much, Federike. It was really great to be part of this podcast and specifically also sending this message about more sustainability and we have to do it now. So I think it also really works well with the name. So thanks a lot for the invitation.
Comments